Difference between revisions of "Rules talk:Magic Power/Committee to Preserve Doubled Learning"

Revision as of 14:21, 12 February 2008

This page assumes that mage doubling is preserved in some fashion. Discussion here will, therefore, concern points of balance for Magic if mage doubling retains its current form, or new forms of the mage doubling rule.

Altered mage doubling possibilities:

• Mage doubling applies only at startup.
• Mage doubling applies only to a central concept for the mage in question.
• Mage doubling applies only to CTs.

If mage doubling is left alone, balance possibilities include:

• Reduce mage stats (natural charge/charge cap/charge rate) to equal those of a Ki fighter.
• Strictly enforce the original magic idea of elemental/"traditional" focus on tech scope.
• Create a character tech day cap so that old techniques must be deleted or forgotten Pokemon-style to learn new techs once the cap has been reached.
• Cause magic spells to have increased stamina drain so that casting spells is much more tiring than using non-spell techs of equal power.

Somebody else better start talking too. You guys suck right now. Tiryst 12:10, 11 February 2008 (PST)

Okay! I'll start talking! I recall being for mage doubling only applying during startup. The idea behind mage doubling was to give mages a way to not be total defenseless squishies right out of the gate, and a cheaply-obtained barrier, movement, and attack kit really does help that. But once a mage is established? Doubling all the time just makes it crazy-easy to get powerful fast. Limit it to a "central concept?" That would only work if we sat down and codified the things that "central concepts" can and can't do. Otherwise everyone would just app whatever spells they wanted and say "oh yeah it's ice elemental" or "oh yes and it's very Orderly", and... no. As for only applying to CTs... well, maybe it's good, but I don't like it, so nyaaah. Pamela 12:28, 11 February 2008 (PST)

The concept thing is kind of lame exactly because of what happened with Order Focus, where pretty much anything could be justified. The original magic concept thing, however, was that magic would deal only with elemental or "traditional magic" forces, and was intended to limit the scope of what spells could accomplish when compared to ki and psi (mainly psi, with conflict between psionic time/space control and "time magic" or some crap). If this were to be adopted, staffers would have to aggressively pursue concept limitations and could not allow people to "justify" their way into having an ice mage slow down time around him or something. Tiryst 13:29, 11 February 2008 (PST)

I'm actually gonna have to go with the increased stamina drain idea on this one. Mages already burn alot of stamina as it is because of their heightened base charge. To cast a barrier, movement spell, and or any kind of utility spell takes 60% of their PL in stamina. Make it cost 1.25x more and it would costs 75% or 1.5x for it to cost 90% of their stamina. Although I think 1.25 is more then enough to really put a dent into mages and to make them balanced. NicholasDeLeone 11:14, 12 February 2008 (PST)

I have to disagree with Curt. Increasing a mage's stamina drain isn't going to balance squat. All it's going to do is force mages to spend over 1/3 of their stamina just on a barrier and movement spell (and 90% base stamina drain? What in the hell are you smoking, pal?), further shorten their endurance in combat, and make stamina extension upgrades nigh-mandatory. Personally, I am in favor of keeping Doubled Learning only during character creation to give mages a leg up in building their template. After that, they're on the same playing field as everyone else. Additionally I'd like to see mages forced to conform to a more "traditional" concept of magic. --Kamin 11:57, 12 February 2008 (PST)

In Alt, what would a "traditional concept of magic be? Over time, it's gone from "it's what wizards do, with the hands and stuff" to "uh, it does everything", more or less. In spirit, I like the idea of limiting mages to a certain theme or domain of effort, but I'm not sure that it's enforceable. Not without somehow laying out an Alt DBZ Official System Of Magic that's fair and that doesn't clash too terribly with all the existing mages. (I'm not opposed to rules changes that cause slight retcons, though, and the recent Saiyan thing didn't go over TOO badly...) Also, relating to the a higher stamina drain? I'm not for that. Technically, mages already have a higher stamina drain than other power types. It's 60% base, while ki users get 30% and psions get 20% per slot. Increasing it any further would just be painful.

My original "extra stamina" idea was more of a "mages can cast this many spells before they burn out" rather than an actual stamina thing, but for some reason that didn't translate through my fingertips. I meant, therefore, for mages to have to worry both about stamina and about a sort of "spells per day" system.

"Traditional" here has nothing to do with "in Alt". I mean traditional things people see as magic--so elemental stuff, plus things like conjuration or necromancy. No time/space magic or other things like that. Tiryst 13:21, 12 February 2008 (PST)